Hi Everybody,
Now that we have gone through all the presentations on ancient Greece, I would like us to discuss some issues on our blog. Please read the following carefully and answer accordingly.
Reflection 1
Tell me ONE thing you have learnt through the presentations or through your own research.
Reflection 2
Ancient Greece was a very patriarchal society.
Having learnt more about the ancient Greeks, do you think this was acceptable at THAT time or do you think the Greeks could have done more to elevate the status of women?
Do reflect and consider your words carefully before writing them down.
Do not write any sexist remarks if you do not have the facts to back your points.
Monday, April 20, 2009
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75 comments:
I learnt that the Greeks will kill those that fail the fitness test so they only keep the strong people.
I learnt that the Greeks had a much different lifestyle compared to us. I think they could have given more freedom to the women and allow them to socialize with other women.
I learnt about the different clothings of the Greeks. I feel that the Greeks should not be too bias and should treat both male and female equally.
I learnt that they were actually quite creative people as they invented many things such as the lighthouse, the semaphore system, the Olympics, etc.
A patriarchal society may have its advantages towards women too. For example, the Greeks thought men are stronger than women (which is quite true most of the time) and were more superior. At that time, people were crazy over land and they believed that countries with bigger land were more powerful. So, the cities in Ancient Greece were trying to conquer each other. Men were often called up to fight and serve in the army. That may be good for women because they just sat at home and enjoyed themselves by spinning and weaving while the men had to fight in the war.
However, the Greeks could have done more in the entertainment industry to make men ad women the same. After all, the only difference is that men are fitter and stronger, but so what? That is only useful during war. In daily life, men and women should be equal. Then it is fair and square.
I learnt that the Spartan men had to serve the country until they were sixty years old.
I think that the women could have more power over the members of the family and also more freedom.
I have learnt about the Greeks lifestyle and their hobbies. I think that their way of governing is biased and cruel. Thank goodness we were not living during that period!
The Spartans, suprisingly, killed the unhealthy babies by abandoning them on a hill or they would become slaves. Anyway, who would want an unhealthy slave??
Maybe women should only be allowed to interfere in non-military stuff. And probably the better way of doing things is to keep the women healthy at home so that not be a big chance that the babies will not healthy and you do not need to murder anyone on the hill...
I learnt that Greeks never drank milk as they considered it as barbaric.
I think that they should have treated both men and women equally as it is only fair to so. Women work hard to take care of children and even have to weave clothes.
Therefore, because both men and women work just as hard, they should be treated equally.
I learnt that the Greeks like sports very much and the men played in nude and they can at least let the women in Greece go out to the market to buy somethings or chat with their friends for a short time.
Reflection 1:
I learnt that the greeks were quite strict and they have strong warriors but poor education.
Reflection 2:
I think the Greeks should let men learn to fight and give education to only women so as to keep women occupied and not staying at home doing chores and by doing this, the Greeks will have strong men to fight and women to teach after they have learnt.
For reflection 1, I learnt how to pronounce many of the gods' names. For example, for a long time, I thought Zeus was pronounced zeee-us and not zoos.
For reflection 2, I would like to add on to Charmaine's comment. The ancient greeks were in a time of conflict and were trying to conquer each other. Charmaine said that the women would be happy being at home weaving but I feel that another reason was that the women would slow the men down. I am not being sexist but women, if allowed tooo much freedom, can slow down the men as the men would have to take more steps to control the freedom of the women and that would take a lot of time, time which the men might use for the welfare of greece. However, I still feel that the women should have had more freedom because they are the creators of new generations of greekies and they should have been treated with more respect.
(I think that you understand my point and realise that I am not able to phrase it properly)
reflection2
They should let woman eat with them at the table in the same room.
I think joyce wants the men to be barbaric warriors and not educated, civilised gentlemen like we are nowadays. By the way, girls are much better at doing chores you know. Boys are clumsy but good at fighting ,learning and studying. therefore, boys should not do the housework or else they will break pots and pans and much more. The girls should be educated, but it will be unfair if the boys are not.
Also, the Greeks were quite bias as they had parties for MEN ONLY and women were forbidden to enter. I think that both genders should be given equal chances to enjoy themselves and not one gender only - the men.
The person who set these rules is so unfair towards women. But probably they think that men are better because they can support the family. Although women also can earn a living themselves...
1.I have learnt how the Greeks spent their life, their means of transportation and their culture.
2.No. I believe that it was their culture that men were superior to women. But in undeveloped countries some people still feel that men are superior to women. However, in today's context, even in the most developed countries the women (I am not sexist) are not totally equal.The Greeks, in today's context, are biased and unfair. The Greeks could not, however, do much to actually stop these traditions. But I also feel that the women should at least be allowed some freedom in Ancient Greek contexts. After all, they are also humans, and they are an important part of civilization, equal to men.
I learnt that Greeks thought that some food was better than other food. The Greeks should have given woman more freedom as everybody has their rights to enjoy freedom.
I learnt that a greek’s social status was determined by the type of clothing they wore.
I think that they could have done better to elevate the status of women as the women are only kept in their houses taking care of the slaves and children. They were not given freedom at all as they could not do whatever they want.
I have learnt that Greeks are geniuses who have invented many sorts of stuff. I also learned the roots of the Olympic flame, which is a common sign when the Olympics are held once every four years. I wonder why nobody had "restarted" the Olympics after it was stopped earlier than the rich French man.
I prefer the Athenians to the Spartans as why would anybody in the world want such a weird society where almost everybody prepares to be a soldier??? The Athenians were more cultured and produced many smart people while the Spartans produced brave people well-prepared for a war (I feel they are a bit "kiasu" in the sense that they are too highly ambitious of winning wars). I think there might be still a few countries that train men or women that are not very intelligent but over-prepared for a war.
Okay, for the second question, I know the girls shouldn't be too happy with this society but a patrairchal society can have some benifits and detriments. I am trying to think with the mindset of the Greeks.
Starting with the benifits, men are stronger and that makes them seem to have more power over women and can control the family better. Men are also the breadwinner of the family and they should deserve to get more power in the family or society.
Detriments are that the family does not earn more than what a family earns now as there are now two breadwinners, the mother and the father but usually, the father earns more. There is less manpower in that society and the economy cannot boom so quickly without the help of women. Although the women might not earn as much, every cent still helps the society in some way or another.
I agree with Raj on his comment on Joyce. Men and women both have their strengths and weaknesses like girls are better at the languages while boys are better at Math and Science due to their character. Boys are strong but can be clumsy at times but that does not mean girls do not make blunders. If the society wants to have plenty of smart people, men and women must be both educated as I have mentioned, both the sex have different strengths and weaknesses.
Girls and some boys should be happy that we are living in such a peaceful society where not that much wars are happening. Now, both girls and boys have much more freedom than the people during the Ancient Greek's time. I think women should have higher power in the family as they are better at taking care of children or cooking as men are not so good in these areas.
I have learnt the greeks are different from us yet the same as us.
I think every thing was quite fair at that time. The men felt great respect towards them and women not only did not have to do labour work but they also did not have to care about the outside world. But I think it was unfair that people who are poor were turned into slaves and bought and sold as if they were property.
Reflection 1: I have learnt that Greeks were strong but did not have very good education
Reflection 2: I feel that the women should be at least be allowed to take part in The Olympics. However, I also think that if the women followed the men to war, they might be a slight burden as they are not taught how to fight.
Hi Mrs. Simon and my fellow GEP mates. I have learnt about the clothings the ancient greeks wore and the food they ate. I learnt that greeks are (most of the time, no, all the time) are very patriarchal. I think they should not be so biased and should treat women fairly and treasure them as they contribute alot to the society. In my opinion, I think women should be allowed to participate in parties, sports and should not be hidden from the public. They also deserve more freedom.
Hi! I learnt about their education and their hobbies. It was also quite saddening that those who failed the fitness test would be killed. I think that the patriachy system is a bit bias. Luckily we are not in this system any longer.
Rafe, why do you name yourself Rafe_THE_MAN. It sounds weird. Maybe Rafe_THE_PROFESSIONAL_ACTOR might sound better. Overall, Rafe Ang sounds the best.
I have learnt that the Spartans were more concerned about educating the children about warfare but athens aimed to cultivate well rounded boys.
I feel that the practise of putting men in a higher position than women had already ben practised for a long time, and even appeard in myths. So people may have found it a little strange if someone asked then to alter their ways ans let women be in power. Women may also be used to this kind of low treatment, but there is a possibility that they may rise up to the challenge too. Women COULD rule if they wanted, it there was enough effort put in to campagin and gain people's trust.
Then again, women may not have wanted to join the warface, having already experienced many years of weaving and spinning at home. I agree with Joyce, they may want to take the educational approach, so athens may have to include girls in their schools too.
Oops, sorry. I deleted my post by accident.
Reflection 1:
I learned that the Greeks invented my things e.g. the lighthouse and the Olympics. I think that the Greeks were quite cruel as they killed those who did not pass the fitness test and abandoned unhealthy babies, or turned them into slaves.
Reflection 2:
I think that the Greeks should not be so biased towards the women. The women should be allowed more freedom and be allowed to attend parties and socialise. However, I think the Greeks were right about not letting women participate in the Olympics.
Women should be allowed to receive education and earn a living, no matter how small. Men are stronger then women and are able to control the family better. The men are also the main source of income for the family.
The greeks only accepted the best of the best and kept no weak ones, this can be proven by the fact that if babies fail their examination, they will be left someplace to rot and die. (how cruel is that?) For the second reflection, I do not think the woman should have been given much freedom as they were needed to weave etc. even though they had slaves. The reason I have to back up this fact is the point that Greece was constantly warring with other states and countries so the men were not at home sometimes. In these situations the women could not possibly leave the household uncared for. But at the same time, when the men were home from war, the woman should be allowed to socialize with others. In my point of view woman could be allowed to socialize but at the correct 'time'.
THE LEUNG, Your name is getting weirder by the minute. Now, you have added your chinese name. Isn't that a bit too risky as this can be viewed by the public. According to the Ryan Sam dictionary, it states that THE LEUNG plus your chinese name is illegal and should pay a fine of a thousand dollars.
Patriachy society is definitely a biased society and I feel it is a big no-no. Freedom should be number one and if you were offered a million dollars but could only spend your life in a dark cell, will you take the deal? I believe a person who is either trying to be funny or have mistaken the question or is really crazy would say a yes.
There have been posts that the Greeks are cruel but that is only for the Spartans. It would be unfair for us to say that the Ancient Greeks are cruel as the Athenians and the minorities are innocent and have done no harm.
Boys, we must be lucky that reservist is until forty years old only. In Sparta, men had to serve to a ripe old age of sixty. My next question is whether they try to bring every man home, dead or alive, after the war, as most countries do now.
After all the presentations, I agree that the Ancient Greeks might have been weirdos that have weirdish rules and traditions that are so ancient.
I wonder how people live without milk? Hai, milk tastes so good... They missed out on such good and refreshing drinks. What a waste!
1. I learnt about the religions about the ancient Greek, which were differentiated by the specific things they believe in.
2. I think it was not acceptable that they could have done more to elevate the status of women as at THAT time, men had more power than women and some activities or things were only restricted to men.
1) Thank you all who have posted and re-posted. Your enthusiasm spurs me on.
2) Please check language and spelling. Do not use Singlish. We must remember the purpose - to write our thoughts and reflections in proper English.
3) No personal comments.
4) My reflections - I thought the Greeks were very cruel to leave the weak to die. That brought to mind a modern-day equivalent in China. Can anyone tell me what I am thinking of?
5) I think that back then in ancient Greece, women were not treated very fairly but it was accepted as their way of life.
Some women today in certain parts of the world are STILL not treated fairly despite the fact that we are living in the 21st century. Why is that happening even today? Can anyone think of any real-life examples of unfair treatment of women?
Keep your comments coming, everyone.
I learnt that Ancient Greeks were actually quite smart and observant. They used mules as a form of transport, instead of horses because they observed the mules and found out that mules had
1)Harder hooves
2)Sure footing
3)Can pass through mountains
4)Easier to train
5)Adaptable
6)Can cover up to 50 miles per day
7)Only need 4 to 5 hours of sleep per day.
I feel that they should have been more fair to women. They should treat both men and women equal. Women were not allowed at theatres. They were not even allowed to act there. Women should also have their own "Women's Theatre", or else, women should be allowed to go to theatres, the same ones as men.
Women were also not allowed to watch or be in the olympics. This cannot be helped as they, at that time, had not yet invented skin-tight body suits. Then, women should have their own olympics.
Women and men should not be confined to one particular space in the house. Women should have been allowed to roam freely about the house at the very least, considering they were not given a lot of freedom.
I can think of a few unfair treatment towards women. In most or all of the Middle-Eastern countries, the women must wear a veil which not only covers their head but their face too. They must also wear long-sleeved shirts and pants/skirts when they go out. Also, they must have a boy or a man accompanying them when they go out.
I'm so sorry, i forgot to add in the answer. I felt that this was NOT and strictly NOT acceptable at that time. It does not matter whether it was that time or now. Maybe the people then had learnt to accept it, or maybe, the men, the people who set this law or this stereotype, or maybe even some/most/all of the women thought that that was right, that was their status and their status that forever would be.
I would like to comment on Ryan Sam's 4th consecutive comment. I agree. The greeks were in a completely different situation compared to us right now. They might have had unknown but very good reasons for even a patriarchal society, beheading law, abandoning on mountain law, no education(not for Athens) law and all their other seemingly crazy laws.
I agree with evceryone's point that women should be allowed to enjoy themselves. Who knows, probably they might even enjoyed staying at home, weaving, weaving and more weaving. However they should have been allowed to socialise with other women. Have you seen women? The only time when they are truly happy is when they are talking with their friends. There is a saying, "Man is a social animal". Maybe it was meant not to apply to women? Maybe so?
Ming zee's comment is sensible. Women do have the power but they could not or did not want to ampaign against the other greeks?
I just read Mrs Simon's comment and I would say tht this gender divide is applicable in India, China, Russia and other countries as well.
In villages in india, women are not allowed to go out forr essentials for more than the given time. It is considered disrespectful to the household if the woman comes home late.
In China, the husbands are allowed to abuse the wives. It is considered socially acceptable. This is very wrong compared to even the greeks as the greeks kept the women at home but did not really torture them much*(depends)
In Russia, the men also abuse their wives but get away with it as men are considered higher in power. I feel that this is despicable as abuse is going to a whole new level. Even isolation in Ancient greece sounds better.
Christel, it is unlawful to let the woman to let others see any part of their body except for their eyes. This is not unfair as it is in the Koran, the holy Muslim book, like the Christian's Bible. All laws must be followed.
Christel, wouldn't it be boring to see a Women's Olympics as they are not as good as men in most sports and it would be redundant and costly to hold a Women's Olympic.
Still, I think horses are more common and mules are rare and horses are much stronger than mules, whose bite is very painful. Oxen would be the best choice for long-distance and tiring journeys.
You know, abandoned babies are quite common nowadays but for a much different reason so does that mean we are as cruel as the Ancient Greeks? Teenage mothers, poor families and many other reasons lead to abortions nowadays. So, in fact, people nowadays are even more cruel.
Yes Ryan. It is cruel. For the same or a different purpose, it is the same act. It is really hard to believe that the greeks had the heart to abandon babies, considering they had great philosophers, mathematicians, literarians? etc...
Why didn't these people do anything about these cruel, unjustifiable acts?
Thank you Mrs Simon, for adding in all those rules as I feel that SOME PEOPLE make lots of personal comments. for example, SOMEONE said that usernames should not be like_______ but should be like_______ even though his new username is (weird). Why is greek culture so...unusual. They kill those who fail fitness test and prevent women from participating in sports and parties. They even think drinking milk is barbaric. Why do they think so? And where do all these greek myths come from? I wonder if they actually have a certain degree of truth in them...
I think i know what you mean, Mrs. Simon. Are you refering to China's current situation? When parents want to have only sons as they carry the family name and due to the one-child policy, parents even KILL their elder daughters in order to have a son? I think I learnt quite alot from all these presentations and I hpoe we can all have more group presentations like these in future.
Dear Pupils,
Thank you again for your great insights. Raj, Ryan and Rafe (all R's) have made some very valuable comments. Our society does indeed have people killing their babies for no valid reason other than the fact that they are of the wrong gender. Are we cruel and barbaric then? Have we done enough to eradicate such situations? What can you do NOW or in the future?
We can make rules like "killing babies are not allowed" or "sexism is not allowed". Actually, I think not ALL of us are cruel and babaric. It is just that certain people are different and are cruel.
Who in the right mind would kill their own baby just because they are of the undesired gender? I think that some countries are not doing enough to eradicate this problem. When the "one-child policy" was made, the china government should also make stuff like "no children should be killed just because they are of the wrong gender." Also, why are kings more important than queens? Why do sons ALWAYS carry the family name?
I agree with Rafe. Even in the modern world nowadays, there are still some signs of the fact that men have higher power, even in Singapore. You just need to observe closely at the daily life or life cycle of a person. Does that mean that people nowadays are still biased?
I learnt about the different types of greek clothings. I think they should have treated both male and females equally.
I learnt that the greeks' lifestyle was very much different from us. they were biased, cruel, weird and... different. Now in the mordern world, women are climbing up to higher posts already. This is so unlike the greek period!
I feel that the greeks should have allowed the women to have more freedom instead of staying at home all day. They should have been able to live freely like how we are doing now. What men can do, we can also do!
I have learnt more about the greek's religion and that they are almost like "vegetarians" in their diet and Shao Yu, I agree with you, I really thing that they should stop treating women like they are second class and start treating them like they are the same as men, it is not fair.
I think that the reason for the low-class treatment of women was the low-class treatment of women. In the olympics and other important events, only men were allowed to participate. This is why parents prefer male children to female children because the males have the chance to bring fame, fortue and honour to their family compared to the women. However, I do not understand why the women were not allowed to participate in the olympics in the first place.
I wonder why Spartans focus so much on war and discipline. Maybe they want more territories. However, smart people from Athens should have better plans for attacking others or defending their territories. Their pace of their society is so slow. Life is so boring there. Thank goodness we are living in this era.
Greeks shoold not be bias!!!
Greeks shoold not be bias!!!
Dennis, why do you put Greeks shoold not be bias twice? Should is spelled wrongly too.
Oops. Accident.
I learnt that the Greeks had a much different lifestyle compared to us.
The Greeks are bias and they are very cruel to kill those weak people who fail the fitness test.
I am so lucky that we are not in those times or else I would be dead by now...
Sean actually they also enslaved the people. Yeah!
I read in a book that Vikings actually were not a patriarchal society, considering their ruthlessness. Females were given important positions in governing and they also had many rights. Why is it so that ruthless people such as Vikings gave so many positions to women while greeks, who are just as bad, ill-treat women?
Actually, we can't really say that they are cruel and bias. This their culture, after all. For example, vegetarians might think we are like barbarians just because we eat meat, but we don't think we are barbarians, right?
I just think that modern man and Ancient Greeks have got a different mindset. We have different beliefs, political society and a better educated population. Actually, they are very much like us. They have democratic political system...
Each nation has a different way of living. To us Greeks may be unusual but to them we are unusual no them. So, I feel that it is not right to criticize a country as they have a reason( but some points are a little weird)
Raj, I think you are unfair too. Women should be educated and not staying at home. This is not a matter of who is fair but that I am correct as you are unfair.
This is about Joyce's last post:
If women do not stay at home, who will take care of the house and children?
Nice one Sarthak !
Probably the maid
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